Game Design & Development

Discuss gameplay and daily development updates on Antilia Currently: 200 Topics, 2445 Posts

Combat Preference: Open or Closed Engagements?

	Jeff Leigh Lead Developer Hey everyone! We're designing Antilia's combat system right now, and I thought I'd collect some community feedback on what sort of engagements they prefer. The two options basically are open engagements and closed engagements: Closed Engagements Let's cover closed engagements first - since they are more common in mmorpgs I think. First attack 'locks' an enemy to you or your party. Only members of your party can interact with the monster - attacking, invoking status effects, etc. Area attacks will only effect monsters the player/party has previously engaged. When the monster is killed, only members of your party can receive loot from the corpse (the corpse is a one-time-per-player dispenser, with equal odds of dispensing items to each player, regardless of order). Nearby NPC characters such as town guards will not attack the monster, since it is locked to the player. Players will tend to receive less loot. Open Engagements I've also designed an open system, as a sort of compare/contrast. Any player can attack any enemy - the players are all considered to be on the same team. Area attacks will effect all enemies in range. When a monster is killed, it drops a 'dispenser' that remains for a short time. Anyone who comes upon the dispenser has an equal chance of receiving something from it, until it fades out. (the corpse is a one-time-per-player dispenser, with equal odds of dispensing items to each player, regardless of order) Nearby NPC characters may opt to get involved in a fight, and have more AI behaviors available to them in general. Players tend to get more loot in general, since they can loot all carcases, but it may lead toward 'scavengers' - players who follow other players just to collect drops (but aren't leveling any combat skills in doing so). (Either way, healing of enemies won't be allowed, as it has too much potential for abuse.) Any thoughts or comments you'd like to share with the dev team? Wednesday, April 4, 2012 9:11am Jeff Leigh - Lead Developer - Right Brain Games In-Game: Tait da'Ariiel, Ziliia da'Lynnar WWWWWWWW I am fine with the Open Engagements. But uhh the only game I have played with the Closed Engagements, or something close to it was Runescape. I was not too big of a fan of that. I'm sure someone else will have more insight then I can give on this subject. =3= What games do Closed Engagements in the way you describe it? Wednesday, April 4, 2012 9:52am udragonfire in my long history of playing mmos i have come to a conclusion that a mixture of both systems works well. for example i used to play another mmo where any player can target a enemy but only the person who originally targeted the enemy gets the loot drop. this solves problems with people just running around 'scavenging' loot people worked to get. i think that when it comes to loot drops it should be low. if only the person (or party of people) worked to get the loot it should be a pretty low rate of equipment dropping. as for quest items they should drop pretty frequently eliminating frustration from trying to get a quest item. as for npc fighting with you... i think it would be a good change to see npcs get in to the fight with you every once in a while. i haven't seen npcs fighting with a player in any mmo i have played so it would be nice to see. this is just my opinion based on combat systems from other mmos i have played. oh and pardon my grammar... im working on it... Wednesday, April 4, 2012 9:56am Jeff Leigh Lead Developer I should probably mention equipment/money drops won't really happen in Antilia. These things would be more like quest rewards - though for equipment I'd like to see those primarily crafted. Monster drops will consist mostly of cooking ingredients & crafting materials. Wednesday, April 4, 2012 10:21am Jeff Leigh - Lead Developer - Right Brain Games In-Game: Tait da'Ariiel, Ziliia da'Lynnar Noxious Skunk In my opinion, I would have some of each options, though more on the open engagements. Anyone would be able to take on the enemy, just not get any experience from fighting it unless they were in the party. After the enemy is defeated, other players won't be able to pick up any dropped loot from the enemy for a short amount of time or after the player(s) who defeated it finished picking up any loot. Wednesday, April 4, 2012 1:55pm Good Dog ^ I agree with Skunk. I'd like to see much more of an open engagement system, with a few closed elements added (if possible). Specifically: If your Character or Party is "locked" to enemy; you/the party get the drop, with a timer, inorder to prevent scavengers. The timer (visible or invisible) for drops is key (IMO): It makes sure you pick up stuff, and it gives scavengers a chance to pick up anything you don't want (or don't get to intime!); most importantly... it limits the drop from remaining around forever. Giving drops a specific "shelf life", would be perfect. (i.e. visible to Player(s), visible to Scavenger(s), then Gone) Also, If fighting an enemy near a city, and a NPC guard joins in; you get less money. after all... a guard has to make a living, right? Oh! just a semi-related suggestion... one way to ensure cooperation defending a town from near by attacks: Make the non-combatant (shopkeepers, etc.) NPC's "flee", from enemies. I know that might be a head ache for some people; but it adds some realism. Having a Non-Com, just standing around while there's fighting, nah... they should run home, or have a safe place (or way) to "garrison". (Dig a fox vulan hole? :D) Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:09pm Alpha Character: Kelevtov da'Alenfey Direlda Volunteer I'm in favor of open engagements. I know that in WoW the locking mechanism is related to dealing damage first and/or dealing a percentage of damage to a mob (couldn't quite figure it out). Other players who aren't in your party, however, can still kill the mob(s) you are fighting, though they wouldn't get the loot if it had been locked for you. And in some areas NPCs do assist you in killing mobs, usually found where friendly NPCs are engaged with hostile NPCs or monsters. I also remember an escort quest where during an ambush the NPCs pushing carts of ale would stop and quaver while the NPC guards would assist you. I'm definitely in favor of AoEs affecting any mobs in range. Provides more fun (especially in the Dwarf Fortress sense). I know because I played a healer (Resto druid) in WoW... And having NPCs be able to assist you would also be nice because then you may be able to take on something you couldn't do otherwise (especially if you were questing as a healer and had a low damage output...). And I'm not against there being scavengers if that means there are people who have put more into crafting skills at the expense of combat skills. I might even trade my portion of crafting loot in exchange for the scavenger making me equipment. And since it doesn't seem like the scavengers would be taking my portion of the loot or getting, in most cases, equipment/money for no effort, then it wouldn't bother me at all. Wednesday, April 4, 2012 5:36pm May God bless you and may a star shine down upon your path. Direlda lives here: www.direlda.net Kaikasu I've actually never seen anything like the closed engagements you described. The closest I can think of is in Guild Wars but that doesn't really count since everything in that game is instance based anyways. =/ Personally, I prefer the open engagements because it allows for the ability of outside help from other players (if the one already engaging asks for it, or seems to need it). I very much like Good Dog's suggestion on drops assigned to the engaged party with a timer. This is the system I've seen most commonly in mmos and I think it works really well because with it, if the person who killed the mob doesn't want the loot, then after their timer runs out it's up for grabs, but if they did want it, then they have that grace time and don't have to worry about scavengers. I like the idea of AoEs effecting all mobs in a range, because then the player has to play a little more strategically, and I think the idea of AI potentially getting involved in a fight is interesting. I think it would make the world more believable, rather than the player being in combat and any town guards or what not standing there picking their noses while they watch you get beaten to a pulp. :P Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:54pm Finadan Moderator Well, Direlda, in WoW it's whoever deals damage first. Anyone not in your raid or party who attacks the mob after this initial damage does not receive loot or experience for the kill unless it resets(and therefore heals) in the time between the first attack and their attack. Generally, the concern with open engagement systems is experience, but since I'm guessing that, like with fishing, you gain experience for each attack, rather than each kill, this would not be much of a problem. There will still be the ever-present griefing tactic of high level players going around and killing everything that lower level players try to kill, but there's no real way around that, and it'd be up to the players to report cases of this, and moderators to fix them. There is one thing that kind of bugs me about AoEs always hitting all mobs in range, though, particularly for longer-range AoEs. If you use them and aggro an entire camp or herd of enemies, when you were just trying to get a few, you tend to die painfully. It'd be nice if perhaps you could make it so really long range AoEs- if there will be any- only aggro all enemies in range if you use them to start combat, and if used during combat only hit enemies you're in combat with. Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:31am Fynudan da'Chalei Direlda Volunteer Finadan, thanks for the info - I could never quite tell which it was in the 3 months I played WoW. I think the challenge of aggroing more enemies than intended with the longer-range AoEs is part of the fun (granted, I play Dwarf Fortress, so my definition of fun has been influenced, to a degree, by their motto: "Losing is fun!"). If you're by yourself, it can be more frustrating than fun, since you may not be able to survive... But if you're adventuring with others it can provide a test of how well you and your friends can deal with crises. As a healer in WoW, I definitely had to learn to be on my toes when my former roommies would decide to pull more enemies without giving me a chance to fully restore my mana, accidentally pulled a second group with a badly placed AoE, etc. Sometimes we wiped and other times we somehow managed to pull off a victory; and the challenge made that victory all the more enjoyable. So I am definitely in favor of the open system. It seems more fun to me and more likely to create opportunities for players to be a part of exciting encounters. Friday, April 13, 2012 7:56am May God bless you and may a star shine down upon your path. Direlda lives here: www.direlda.net

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